A few posts back, a few of us got into discussion about carnal Christianity--somehow, though I hadn't meant at all for it to go that way (thanks, John). Anyway, I thought I'd post some follow up thoughts.
Although I'd like to point out that, whether someone is truly Christian or not is not up for me to decide, to judge, to point out, whatever. Again, as I said before, assurance of salvation can only be obtained from God. And, if someone is doubting their salvation, they should be led to the Scriptures, not some hokey dokey prayer written by no one knows who.
Now that being said, John started us on his belief that carnal Christianity does not exist. Here are a few things I found:
Essential Truths of the Christian Faith by R.C. Sproul
I think what R.C. Sproul mentions here shows that the four of us (Kendra, Richard, John and I) may be talking about different things. Because it does seem to me that, at least most of, the Corinthian church was living carnally, yet Paul called them "Brothers..." then perhaps carnally Christianity is a possibility. But that maybe what I am talking about (though maybe not John) is "Easy Believism." You need to read this blip by Sproul to understand what I'm talking about, I think.
Carnal Christianity by Tony Evans
Now I can't remember if Tony Evans is good or not, but he does site some good points here.
Christless Christianity by Michael S. Horton
This article really has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but it's really good! It talks about the emergent church and some other things. Very, very good.
But I would like for John, Richard, and Kendra to tell me about the Parable of the Sower. And explain Revelation 21:8 and 1 Cor. 6:9-11.
Friday, May 08, 2009
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17 comments:
Can you give a link to the post your referencing? I think I remember it, but I'd like to re-read it ( and the comments)
Okay :) This is going to fun!
I am on my phone so no link but it is from Monday the 5th so just a couple days ago. Tell is how do you know you are saved or something like that. More to come later.
Oh boy, I didn't see all those comments last time I looked. I'll enjoy reading this:-)
Did you want us to read the entire R.C. Sproul book or just an excerpt? Because I'm going to have to get the book if it's the whole thing.
Probably just the excerpt since we don't have the book.
Which excerpt?
Also, Scott (from Affix) posted on your blog below. I was asking him what he thought on this stuff :)
And, read my blog.
I am not going to tackle all the scriptures in one comment. For now here is what I think about Rev. 21:8 and 1 Cor. 6:9-11. I believe these two passages have similar meanings and both obviously refer to unbelievers and the coming judgment. I think that Gal. 5:19-21 sums up the passage nicely when it says, "those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God." The Greek word translated "practice" refers to carrying on in the action or living a lifestyle in sin. All believers can sin and do these things, but those whose lifestyle is consumed by them without repentance can not belong to God. see 1 John 3:4-10
Yes, John, that has been my understanding of it as well.
I didn't even have to look Rev. 21:8. Richard had a friend in high school who always used to sing:
"Revelation, Revelation 21:8, 21:8.
Liars go to he-el. Liars go to he-el. Burn, burn, burn. Burn, burn, burn." To the tune of that French jingle. Nice. I know.
Anyway, I agree it's talking about unbelievers. Obviously, we all lie, and I don't know about you, but I'm not going to hell ;)
The parable of sower is a little more difficult. I don't think what we're disagreeing on can be solved by this parable. Because the whole premise of the debate is "Can a person be saved who doesn't bear fruit?"
This is sort of on-topic....
Sermon by Paul Washer "We have Forgotten that the Way is Narrow"
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=10507846480
There are many interesting points here.
I don't know if I have heard that sermon but Paul Washer is great.
Crystal, I love you.
I just read the Sproul exerpt... I think he is right on.
I know this thread is probably dead and no one is reading it anymore. But here's what I have to say. I talk a lot so it was hard for me to condense this...and it's still way to long.
I think that a born-again Christian can not live for an extended period of time in habitutal, unconfessed sin. I mean...they can but there is no enjoyment from it. I think that a true believer would become so miserable by their sin and that God's discipline would become stronger and stronger until it can not be denied. (Heb.12:5,8,10 IMy son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the LORD, nor faint when you are reproved by Him; for those whom the Lord loves he disciplines, and He scourges every son whom he receives... But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate chcildren and not sons...He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.)
I agree with your frustration over people confirming the salvation of someone because of a prayer or emotional experience they may have had. I personally would be afraid to confirm someone's salvation. I think if someone is doubting (which, truly....I think most of us do at some point...I know I did, and rather recently), that person needs to be taken to the scriptures. Specifically, for me anyway, 1 John and Romans. Anyone who does not take that doubting person to scripture, whether a youth pastor, senior pastor, or friend is in danger of that person's blood being on their hands.
One thing I've learned recently that has been something I've thought a lot about is this (learned this at Sunday night Bible study). A lot of people have "demon-faith". WHAT???? What on earth is that?
James 2:19: " You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."
We were talking about this verse and something Fred (the teacher) pointed out was that the demons have 2 of the 3 important parts of faith down. But 2 out of 3 is not enough, obviously...because they are demons, enemies of God.
1. They believe...with their minds and understanding they KNOW who God is. Every time Jesus confronted demons they would say something like, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?" (Luke 8:28). The demons know who God is, and they knew that Jesus was God. So, they believed with their minds.
2. They believed with their emotions. In James it says they "shudder". That's an emotional response, I would say of fear.
But they were missing the important one.
3. They did NOT believe with their volition (will). This is repentance. This is the desired, the Need to change your sinful, fleshly will, and allow God to take control of it and live by the Spirit. The demons did not believe with their volition, in fact, they were completely opposite. Everything inside of them Faught the will of God. They KNOW they will loose in the end, yet they still think they have a chance because they will not believe with their volition.
So, why do I share this? This helped me really understand better the moment of salvation. Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of people at church (not just ours by the way, every church) who *think* they are saved because they do believe with their mind, and they made an emotional experience of it, but their volition, their will never changed. They didn't want to repent and be changed. I feel like this is the missing ingredient in a lot of people. As Fred said, There are a lot of people with "demon-like faith". Scary.
So...anyway, my point is this. As we both know a lot of people *think* they are saved because, as you put it, of some "hokey-dokey prayer" or even because they had an emtional experience as a kid (or adult). But, I am afraid that there are far fewer born again believers than we think. There must be a change in will, from mine to God's. There must be a declaration of Lordship, right? and, I really think that a true believer may "fall away" for a time, but that falling away is absolute misery because of the disciple that Lord imparts on that person. I know you guys haven't had to discipline Maryn much, if at all yet. But, you start off gentle, a firm No, leads into a squeezing of the hand, to a flick of hand, then maybe if the offense is repeated more a spank of the hand, and if the offense continues, a much firmer spank on the bottom, maybe with the diaper first, then with nothing. I think that God's disciple in similar, perhaps being gentler at first and becoming more and more firm until it can not be ignored. I would venture to say that if there is no discpline from a "fallen Christian" then he is an illegitimate child.
Good points, Michelle. It's not dead; I just responded on my blog today! I take a long time to process my thoughts :)
haha...me too. I've been thinking all weekend and just haven't been able to sit and write it out.
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